THE PRODUCER'S CHAIR: VICTORIA SHAW
By James Rea www.theproducerschair.com
Now that Victoria Shaw has 'done it all', she's just getting started. And it's no wonder. Sixty-Five (65) million records later, Shaw's highly developed instinctive approach to everything music, coupled with her sense of humor makes it all look easy.
From writing multi-genre 'HIT' songs, to recording 5 of her own albums, to performing globally, to discovering, developing and producing 'STARS', to running her own 'hot' little publishing company in the heart of Music Row, Victoria's credentials are something to behold; her most cherished of all being, her Academy of Country Music Award for Song of the Year, John Michael Montgomery's 'I Love The Way You Love Me' and her producer CMA award for Lady Antebellum's single of the year 'I Run To You'.
Victoria's first 3 major hits as a songwriter came in 1992, when Doug Stone recorded 'Too Busy Being In Love', Garth Brooks recorded 'The River' and John Michael Montgomery recorded 'I Love The Way You Love Me', all reaching the #1 position on the billboard charts within a 12 month period. In 1994, Shaw signed an artist deal with Warner/Reprise Records, releasing her debut album IN FULL VIEW which garnered three singles. That same year, Brooks reached number one with another one of Shaw's compositions, 'She's Every Woman' and in 1995, Shaw received a Top New Female Vocalist nomination at the ACMs.
Shaw's self-titled second album for Reprise, VICTORIA SHAW, was released in 1997 and in 1998, Shaw collaborated with Brooks, Billy Dean, Faith Hill, Olivia Newton John, Neal McCoy, Michael McDonald and Bryan White for a charity single with all proceeds going to the Cystic Fibrosis Foundation entitled 'One Heart at a Time', which went sold over 300,000 copies without radio play.
That same year, Tricia Yearwood recorded the song 'Where Your Road Leads', which Shaw co-wrote and originally recorded on her first Reprise album IN FULL VIEW. Yearwood's rendition of the song, which was recorded as a duet with Garth, also served as the title track on Tricia's 1998 album and was released as a single.
Shaw's barrel of cuts plus 6 #1 Hits also produced two Emmy Awards in 99' and 2000' for Outstanding Original Songs for the daytime dramas One Life to Live and As The World Turns, Ricky Martin & Christina Aguilera's multi-format smash 'Nobody Wants to be Lonely', songs that have been recorded by artists as diverse as Keb Mo, Olivia Newton-John, Boyzone, Faith Hill, LeAnn Rimes, Reba, Tricia Yearwood, Billy Ray Cyrus, Michael McDonald and Lady Antibellum and she has received over 20 ASCAP and SESAC Awards including Publisher of the Year.
After exiting Reprise, Shaw released her third album, OLD FRIENDS, NEW MEMORIES in 2001 on her own Taffeta label, which included her renditions of the songs that she had written for other artists. Victoria also penned Jim Brickman's 'Sending You A Little Christmas', Sarah Buxton's 'Outside My Window' and Eric Church's breakthrough hit, 'Two Pink Lines' and Emerson Drive's 'A Good Man' which both charted in 2006.
As a producer, in 2007-2008 Victoria co-produced Lady Antebellum's self-titled platinum debut album which earned them CMA Awards for Vocal Group of the Year and Single of The Year, "I Run To You". Shaw also produced Jim Brickman and Richie McDonald's COMING HOME FOR CHRISTMAS, Canadian Country Music Association Award winner Jessie Farrell, HLN's Robin Meade, television personality Carson Kressley, actor/singer Erich Bergen's new 5-song EP, NEVER GIVE UP, Lacy Cavalier's LOUISIANNE project which features 4 songs co-written by Victoria and Keb' Mo's latest album which features their collaboration, 'For Better or Worse'.
As an artist Victoria has recorded 5 CDs, five videos, toured extensively in Europe, including touring with Don Williams throughout the UK and...she has performed at the London Palladium twice. But I'm sure that her most memorable gig had to be performing in Central Park with Garth Brooks at the 4th largest outdoor concert in history, in front of 750,000 people.
Victoria was born in Manhattan, New York, but her family moved to Los Angeles when she was 5. Before Victoria was born her mother was a recording artist on Capitol Records and then Verve Records recording under the name Carole Bennett. Shaw's Father, Ray Shaw, was also a singer and performer working on Broadway and in touring companies.
Growing up in Southern California, Victoria was inspired by country rock and pop songwriters such as The Eagles, Joni Mitchell, Paul Simon and James Taylor and began writing songs at an early age. By the time she was thirteen, Shaw had founded a band called SOLICE which performed all around LA playing weddings, high school dances, Bar Mitzvahs and even "Divorce parties"! At the age of 18, Shaw moved back to New York by herself and started playing in piano bars at night while managing and booking sessions during the day at a 16 track recording studio called High Rise Sound.
The Producer's Chair: Did you learn to engineer while you were there?
Victoria Shaw: No but I learned how to splice tape and I was good at making tape copies from reel-to-reel to cassette. It was a better education than I thought. If they needed some background vocals, I'd run in and do that too and then went back to answering the phones when I was done. These days I run pro-tools though.
The Producer's Chair: How did you wind up playing in piano bars?
Shaw: The owner of the studio was the host of an open mic night in Times Square and when the piano player quit he said; "why don't you come and do this?" I was SO scared because I didn't want to screw up anyone. But it turned out that I could do it because I'm a good reader. So I did that once a week for a few months and the club offered me a piano bar gig for the other nights. That set me off playing all over New York for years and years. I loved it.
The Producer's Chair: How did you wind up in Nashville?
Shaw: I was living in Long Island with an aunt and commuting back and forth between there and the studio in New York on the (LIRR) the Long Island Railroad and I wrote this song one night on a little 12 inch Casio about playing in a piano bar and coming home late on the LIRR. It was called 'Is That Any Way To Treat A Star'. My Dad was a real entrepreneur and on one of my trips out to California I played it and he's like; "Hey, let's record it". He didn't know anything about country music but he found out who the country music people were in LA and he stumbled onto Jerry Fuller to produce it. I had no idea who Jerry was at the time nor did I know who Jon Hobbs was who played the piano on that session! So we cut a couple of sides and I had this '45' and I went back to New York and somebody said; you should bring it to this big station in New York to the program director, he's nice and he'll listen to it. I was naïve and I called up this guy named Dean Hallam and I said; Hi, I have a record and I heard you were a nice man and you would listen to it. I'm pretty sure the only reason he agreed to see me is because I told him that I heard he was nice! So I went there and he said; I'm not going to play it but I'll give you my opinion. So he listened to it and said; can you leave this with me and I said; yeah and a couple of days later he called up and said; we just tested your song on the air and eventually it became a huge hit in New York City. It was really odd and a bunch of label people in Nashville were like; 'Who the hell is Victoria Shaw and why is she getting played on this big station?'
Those people wanted to meet me down here so I came down with a manager that my father found for me and she took me around meeting publishers and A&R people like Martha Sharp and Charlie Monk. And Charlie said; "if you ever want to come down here and write with the big boys I'll fix you up".
The few times I went down to Nashville no one was interested in me as an artist. I also realized that even though my father loved me dearly, it was not a good thing, to have your dad trying to get you a record deal. This is tale that's as old as time. But I was at least smart enough to realize that whenever I said; "My Dad', I saw the faces on the people I talked to and I picked up on it very quickly that the industry was pretty turned off by that. Soon after that I asked my dad to just be my dad and I pursued things by myself from there on out. My father ended up being extremely proud of the fact that I did it on my own.
So I started driving down to Nashville from New York every few months. The first person I called was Charlie Monk and I told him I wanted to take him up on his offer. He was incredibly kind, letting me use his office and his phones and tape copy machines. He set me up with people like Marcus Hummon, Steven Curtis Chapman, who did my demos for $ 100 a song and I also became good friends with the guy in the tape copy room by the name of Gary Overton!. One of the first times I was down here someone suggested I go to the Bluebird to a writer's night, which obviously I had never heard of. I went there by myself and it was a round consisting of Paul Davis, Fred Knobloch, Tom Schuyler and Paul Overstreet and it was like a religious epiphany. It truly changed my life, the most inspiring thing I'd ever seen, and I remember thinking that night; that's how I'm going to get my record deal. I'm going to become a hit songwriter for other people and get noticed that way, which was totally naïve because I didn't know if I had the talent to do that. So I really concentrated on being a songwriter but for 8 years, I couldn't get arrested in this town. I eventually became friends with Steve Small who was managing Gary Morris at the time. One day I mentioned to Gary that I was looking for a publishing deal and he had me come in and play my stuff for him. What was great about Gary is that he was an artist and he "got me". He gave me my first break and offered me a pub deal. Gary didn't care that I wasn't this hardcore country writer. He encouraged me to keep writing like "me", but he made up my game. I don't think I got paid much for that publishing deal but I didn't care, I wanted in. About a year later I had three number ones thanks to Randy Hart who was running Gary Morris Music.
The Producer's Chair: How many publishing deals have you had?
Shaw: Gary Morris was my first publishing deal and then Maverick Music, which was owned by Madonna and Warner Bros. made me a great offer, which had a lot of potential but, they didn't have a physical office here and it was just kind of frustrating so I left Maverick and thought; I don't think I want a publishing deal anymore. So I published myself for a couple of years and in that time I won two Emmy awards and got some cuts by Ty Herndon, Olivia Newton John and a few others. That was when I was busy raising babies so I was content.
Then...Desmond Child, who's a friend of mine, had a writer's camp in Miami and we along with Gary Burr wrote a big hit for Christina Aguilera and Ricky Martin called 'Nobody Wants To Be Lonely'. Soon after that Desmond called me up and said; I wanna talk to you about a publishing deal. I wasn't really looking for one but I thought if that can give me an "in" into the pop world then I'm interested in talking. So I signed with Destin Songs. Again they were a new company and they came here but they only lasted about a year and a half because even though Desmond had a great vision for the company his partners didn't want to make the full commitment to Nashville. From Destin, I wound up with Warner Chappell for about a year and then BMG New York, (which eventually turned into UMG) who signed me because of my ability to write both pop and country. I left them in 2007 and until now I've been self-published. Funny enough, to quote Godfather 3, "Every time I think I'm out they pull me back in". I'm actually considering an interesting offer right now for a publishing deal.
The Producer's Chair: Have you ever had an independent plugger?
Shaw: I've always been my best plugger, other than Randy Hart. That's the thing...if I go into business with somebody, they have to do something I can't do, or do it as well. Good pluggers are really rare in this town. There are some but it's a really hard thing. Holds don't mean what they used to and it's a whole different game.
That's what happened with my last deal. I thought...at some point everything started to shift and I wasn't getting as many cuts as I used to have and I knew the quality of my writing wasn't going down, so I was trying to figure out, 'what is the problem'. Then I started looking at the credits on the albums and saw that the producers had their writers on these projects. And I thought; ok, I'm not leaving and if you're not going to let me play in your reindeer games, I'm going to find my own reindeer. And again it was kind of naive but I thought; I'm just going to have to find my own artist and develop them, if they're going to be that excluding, which is sad because I don't think a lot of the time now, the best song necessarily wins. And that makes me sad because even on projects that I've done, I've produced things where, I've said; no, my songs don't work on this. At some point I thought I'd find a male artist to develop because I've had all these hits with men. I wasn't looking for a girl and then I found Hillary.
The Producer's Chair: How did you meet Hillary?
Shaw: I knew her mom Linda Davis and I would see Hillary as a kid mostly at the hair salon where Linda and I got our hair done. Then Linda invited my family to her Christmas at Opryland show that she was doing and all of a sudden Hillary came out to sing and I was like the RCA dog you know, where my head went to one side like 'huh' and there was just something about her. She was so raw and kinda pitchy but she had 'that thing' and she had this texture that you could hear through all of it. And something just hit my heart. It's intangible, you really can't explain the 'it factor'. And I walked up to her afterwards and I said; I want to work with you and I don't even know what I mean. I just know that I want to work with you. And she was really sweet and she said; oh my goodness, that would be a dream come true. I was planning on going to beautician school and I've always secretly dreamed about doing music. Her parents were really protective but I think because it was me and they trusted me, they let her come and start working with me.
She was about 15 or 16 when she came to my office and I just kinda had her sing acapella and I said; I really would like to develop you as an artist and teach you about songwriting and get you a record deal. For some reason, I had it in my head that this would take five years and funny enough it was almost literally 5 years to the month when Lady A took off. But I said; we're not in a rush. I think the most important thing for you to do is to have your childhood experiences. Don't quit your tennis team or any after school activity. If we meet once a week, it's ok. We're just going to take this nice and slow. And that's what we did. She'd come after school sometimes and we would try different songs and then by the time she was 17, I started to bring her into writing sessions. So in the beginning, I would ask my hit songwriter friends if they would write with us. A lot of those writers tell me now that they saw it in my eyes and believed in me believing in her.
She was a great eager student and she listened. I wish someone had taught me some of the shortcuts that I showed her, or the songwriting etiquette and the reason why's. When something didn't work, I'd tell her why and I think that is invaluable. Some people take it as the precious information that it is and some writers get indignant. The ones that thought they knew better than me...I'm not sure where they are these days. I take a lot of pride in Hillary being a hit songwriter.
The Producer's Chair: In 94' you got your first record deal. How did that unfold?
Shaw: I was at a party at Daniel Hill's house and there was a guitar pool going on in the backyard. I sang a song and Leanne Baron, who was Jim Ed Norman's assistant was there and she freaked out and said; Oh my God you're wonderful and you need to meet my boss. Jim Ed was the president of Warner Bros and she had me come and meet with him. He was lovely and he got me and he offered me a development deal. And I said; you can call it what you want but it's is it going to be an actual record deal cause I'm not leaving. He was extremely supportive and I enjoyed that time. I think I was there for 4 years; two albums, 4 videos, great reviews from the critics but for many reasons didn't sync up with the stars. Because of my time as a recording artist, I'm probably a much more well-known songwriter than a lot of my songwriter friends who are more successful. And I learned a whole lot that benefitted me as a producer.
During that period, Victoria had another number 1 with Garth for the song 'She's Every Woman', she was nominated for CMA Female vocalist of the year and the year before that she had the song of the year with 'I Love The Way You Love Me'.
The Producer's Chair: You've spent quite a bit of time touring Europe. How did that come about?
Shaw: I had this kooky great career in Europe more than America because I really pursued it. I was one of those artists that actually thought that Europe was important and I still have a pretty cool little following there.
The Producer's Chair: When I interviewed Paul Worley he said; "Victoria worked with them on their live show, their songs and coached them. When I saw them, it was already figured out. They really kind of crystallized in me the prototype of artist development of today." What was his reaction the day you brought Lady A to him?
Shaw: I actually remember something Paul said. Tracy Gershon was a big champion early on, so I took them to Warner Bros because Tracy had arranged for Paul to come and hear them. We sat in the conference room and they sang and he looked at me and said; "You did A&R's job" and nobody had ever put it that way. I was just doing naturally what my gut said and that was a real compliment. They were completely prepared and we knew exactly who they were.
The Producer's Chair: When you first met Hillary, she was a single artist. How did Lady A happen?
Shaw: In the beginning before the boys came on board, I got Hillary a development deal with RCA. Leslie Roberts was our champion over there. And I said to Hillary; I don't know if by the end of this year we're going to be ready for this deal, but by the end of this year, you will be known as an artist and I will be known as a producer because every week, they're going to see our names on that pitch sheet and it really helped to change everything.
I sent Hillary to an event at 12th & Porter where she bumped into Charles Kelly and she recognized Charles from Myspace. She was a fan of Josh Kelly and because of Josh found Charles. So she approached him and said something about being a songwriter working with me and they got together to write. And she was telling me about these boys from Georgia and they were having fun and were probably going to do this kooky side band called Lady Antebellum. And they went and took some crazy pictures in period costumes and they came up with this funny name because they were standing in front of an antebellum house. Then she called and told me they were going to play at Exit Inn and wanted me to come. And I said to my husband before I walked out the door; why do I think I'm going to go to this and it's going to make a lot of sense? And I went and I saw them and Hillary looked like she felt really safe between Charles and Dave. That's the word I kept thinking. So my arms and my heart became bigger and I welcomed them into the fold. They came to town talented no doubt. They were good songwriters, but I don't think either of them will disagree that I helped turn them into great songwriters. They paid attention to how I wrote and would comment when I took the song somewhere they never thought of.
The Producer's Chair: Did you develop your producing chops doing demos?
Shaw: Absolutely, I was producing for years. I used to think the difference between a demo and a master was the lunch budget. I think the first thing I officially produced was...before Lady A had their record deal, Jim Brickman was in love with this song of mine called 'Never Alone' and he'd cut it with Sara Evans but RCA wouldn't give him permission to have her on the single because she had a song coming out, so he needed another artist to sing it and I said; I've got this new group called Lady Antebellum that I'm working with. They don't have a record deal yet but they sing amazing and he loved them, so, he really gave them their first shot. He cut the track and I produced their vocal and it became a Top 5, AC hit for Jim and was really their first success.
The Producer's Chair: Being a singer, were you tough on them in the studio?
Shaw: I remember one time in particular, they were doing the demo of 'Love Don't Live Here Any More' and Charles was singing the song and I just kept telling him; I'm sorry Charles but I just don't feel it, and he'd look frustrated at me and go back in and do another take. And I'd say; I'm so sorry, I just don't believe it. And he'd go back in and at one point I said; I don't believe that you're angry. And he's like...oh trust me, I'm angry. And I laughed and I said "Now use that anger that you're felling towards me right now and go back in and sing it properly". And he sang it and I remember, he came out and listened to it and said; "God, you make me so angry. You drive me nuts and then I listen to it and it's the best vocal and you're right!"
But the thing about Charles is that, he could sing the phone book and get away with it because he's so good. His worst day is somebody's best. I knew what he was capable of so I would push him and push him and push him. It was a pleasure because all three of them are so talented. We had a lotta laughs.
The Producer's Chair: Did you also do performance coaching with them?
Shaw: When they started playing out, Charles would always call me and go over the set list because I was really good at pacing a show. They really paid their dues and did it weekly and gathered their audience the old fashioned way by word of mouth and I'd go there and I was videotaping their performances and they'd watch it back like a football play. I did that a lot with Hillary in the beginning too. We'd have date night and we'd go down to the bars on Broadway and I have $5 in my hand and say to the bands; "can my friend sing a song?", and she learned some covers just so she could go in and have experience and sing through lousy speakers. The nice thing about playing back a video of somebody's performance is that, I didn't have to tell them half as much as I would have had to. I just showed it to them and they critiqued a lot of it themselves. And then I'm able to tell them how to fix the rest.
It's funny...I didn't have this perfect plan. I'm just good at a lot of things and my gut told me to do this and to do that. I didn't realize that when most people develop an artist they don't do that. They don't go from; how to perform, how to do a set list, how to listen through shitty speakers and still know how to keep on pitch, where to touch the mic, how to read a room, how far to be from the mic in the studio, how to not pop your ps, to a hundred other things. And then also, make sure you understand how to love a mic in the studio, to make it work for you and not be afraid of it, and make sure the music is honoring the song and not over-powering it.
The Producer's Chair: Do you have an artist development system that you have developed?
Shaw: I don't...I have techniques and I have some tricks that are go-to's, but I 'truly' believe that every artist is different and I never tell an artist who they are musically. I'm really good at finding out 'who' they are and bringing it out of them. It's totally about strengths and weaknesses and reading them and developing them the way they need to be developed.
The artist I'm developing now is Lacy Cavalier. She's got that "thing" that you just know! Different from the way I developed Hillary and the boys. I have had this feeling from the beginning that Lacy is probably going to break in a different way than the norm...like youtube. Right now she's actually in LA shooting a TV show. So I guess my gut is a pretty good compass. Funny enough, I've tried to develop a couple of male artists and they all come in really eager and then...I don't know if it's that they have problems taking directions from a woman or, I just build them up so well that they actually start to think they know better then everyone. I've had a hit or miss with girls too but I really look forward to developing a guy someday because I've made most of my living writing hit songs for men that women want to hear.
The Producer's Chair: Does being a singer give you an advantage in the studio?
Shaw: Yes, as a singer I won't only say what you're doing wrong but I will show you tricks for days on how to achieve those notes, how to achieve that sensibility and those little few nuances in a song that need to be interpreted. Can you laugh here? Can you give me something a little more wistful here? I'm interpreting the song as the songwriter and as the singer and I do think that gives me an advantage, to just being a musician, which I also am.
The Producer's Chair: Who's your engineer of choice?
Shaw: I always have a great engineer for my sessions. I work most often with Chad Carlson because not only is he a 'bad ass' engineer, he's also a great singer/musician and songwriter and I KNOW it plays into the way he records. However, when it comes to recording vocals I like to run the board myself. It's just me and the artist. Very intimate, very relaxed. I've actually been hired lately just as a vocal producer on some things which I think is really smart. They've been doing that in the pop world for years!
The Producer's Chair: How did you get Lady A signed?
Shaw: When we felt collectively that they were ready be seen, I did something I'd never done in this town which was to call every head of every label. I'd known them all for years, but I had never called in a favor. Almost every label came that night. That room was filled to the brim because I've made great relationships in this town and they all came. By the end of the next day, they had 5 offers on the table. Mike Dungan texted them the minute they walked out of that club.
The Producer's Chair: How did you wind up doing Central Park with Garth?
Shaw: He called me up one day and said; hey, I'm going to be playing Central Park, do you want to open for me. I don't know if he even got the sentence out before I said YEAH. It was amazing and it was a really lovely invitation that Garth extended to me. My apartment in New York is not that far from where we played. I think I walked home or something. It's a little bit of a blur. It was just me at the keyboard and my friends Steven McClintock and Stuart Ziff and their two guitars backing me up.
I was supposed to play for 25 min but I did 20 because I was so freaked out that I didn't even look at my watch. I had played my five songs and never thought to play more! I always joke that after the first 50,000 people you really can't see anymore. It was a great experience and it was an amazing day and it's fun to be a part of history and a trivial pursuit question as to the "very first" country artist to play Central Park! Ha! Just kidding...I'm not in Trivial pursuit!
The Producer's Chair: What are the most important things that indie artists must do, to get your attention?
Shaw: I am 100% across the board not interested in working with an artist who is not social media savvy or at least understands the importance of it and just needs my help to steer the in the right direction. I am going to work my ass off on the music end and if they are not my partners and holding up their part of the partnership then why should I bust my gut? I should not have more twitter followers than my artists and if I do they better have a million youtube views like my artist Lacy Cavalier. If an artist doesn't want to engage their fans why should I engage with them?
The Producer's Chair: There have been a lot of great female songwriters who, like you, have had a ton of experience producing demos. Why is the world of producing so male-dominated, in your opinion?
Shaw: Hell if I know!
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